(Edit: I totally forgot to provide links to Josh’s blog, sorry)
Josh Brown is running a series on the consumptive church that has generated some fantastic discussion. The latest post deals specifically with consumptive patterns in U.S. churches.
Here’s part of his premise to give you some background:
1. There are two types of churches: those that integrate themselves into the surrounding culture and those attempting to create a subculture. Both operate under consumptive principles because both are reacting to a society built on consumptive principles. The former is trying to be a part of a larger consumptive culture and the latter trying to create its own.
2. “everything that we do and how we do it are just as theological as our doctrines and treatises. That our communities, architecture, spending patterns, meals, and politics, to name a few, are every bit as theological as our views on Jesus, the Trinity, salvation, the church, etc.”
So taking that tact, we must ask questions like:
In that light, what does state of the art sound and lighting say about how we view God and people?
And an answer might be:
Could the “theology” be that we believe God needs a show and the audience needs to be entertained? That it’s less about the long-slow process of becoming like Christ and more about the big, marketed “WOW” factor?
Here’s what I would like to discuss.
At the root of our problem is not our consumptive practices. But the lack of contentment that feeds them. And our discontent leads us to live in a culture that creates waste with temporary fads and transient products. ... In many ways this is why the christian culture is just as full of waste as the larger culture. The music is transient and has very little lasting power or is inherently good as a work of art. The architecture is transient and has very little lasting power or is inherently good as a work of art. The sermons are transient and have very little lasting power or are inherently good as a work of arts.”
This idea of transient (or throw-away) culture drives what Josh calls, “The Religious Industrial Complex.” Since we live in this culture and our main models of church are based around replication or entrenchment it is no wonder that U.S. Christianity looks this way. To my knowledge no church (or government for that matter) in the U.S. has been successful at manipulating the entirety of U.S. culture to Christ’s standards.
Thoughts? Does your church actively fight against this mentality?
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December 12, 2007 at 15:10
And an answer might be:
Could the “theology” be that we believe God needs a show and the audience needs to be entertained?
Another answer may be that our “theology” leads us to use multiple types of media (much like Jesus himself did) to teach and, in doing so, we want to do everything we do with excellence.
December 12, 2007 at 15:33
No, our church doesn’t fight against this mentality. We have huge screens (3) sound system, lights, semi-professional musicians, etc.
I’m sorry I am dating myself, but in the Jesus People revival of the 70s, we had none of this. Witnessing and interaction was one-on-one. It might be in singing in the public park, baptisms on the beach, visiting a “Christian House” (young christians living communally), a home Bible study or prayer meeting. The church I went to, a black pentecostal church that welcomed hipees, was jam packed to the rafters because people were excited about Jesus and the Spirit of God was so obviously present. If non-believers came, they were awed by the expressions of kingdom love and life. There was nothing “seeker sensitive” about it. There was no money for multi-media extravaganzas and theater seats. Yet thousands met the Lord, most of those Jesus-people grew up and became mothers and fathers, got careers, went to college, remained faithful Christians (Most of my friends) and are now sitting in pews of seeker-friendly churches wondering where the Holy Spirit went. And our children seem to lack a deep commitment, leaving for better entertainment elsewhere. Expensive electronic entertainment, expensive buildings, professionals and cunsumptive culture seem to have co-opted the work of the Holy Spirit. Bummer.
I don’t want to be too negative though. There are pockets of genuine revival and authentic expressions of Christian culture and it’s really great to fellowship with them. There is a proverb that says, “where there is no ox, the stall is clean”. Real revival, real Christian expressions can be messy and uncomfortable to some. Kind of like the Book of Acts.
December 12, 2007 at 15:46
Josh is making a popular categorical error when he says, “Everything that we do and how we do it are just as theological as our doctrines and treatises.”
While this seems like freedom from old, dry theology, it is actually an excuse for people to start telling other people that they are not “christian” if they spend money at Wal-Mart. It is a veiled shift from dogmatic principles to dogmatic practices. The former is absolutely necessary according to Scripture. The Latter is absolutely deadly.
“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” I Corinthians 2:1-5
December 12, 2007 at 16:42
chris.
thanks for your generous words and for the link.
i understand simon’s pushback. at what point is it “ok” to contextualize the gospel and at what point does our attempts at using the “mediums of the day” become antithetical to the way of jesus. so there is definitely some real tension there as you walk that tight rope between the two. but that’s where i would jump on board with rick’s comments. if you look at the fruit and traction gained by some of the stuff he described with the jesus movement as opposed to some of the stuff created by the seeker movement . . . there would be some drastically different looking stuff. i guess as my redneck parents say . . . the proof is in the pudding. what “model” or “acts” produce the best fruit. and for my money, i think the decentralized, anti-hyperconsumption, sharing, loving, gracious, serving body of christ bears more fruit than it’s red headed step sister, the suburban, seeker megachurch.
December 12, 2007 at 16:45
Risk said:
I’m sorry I am dating myself, but in the Jesus People revival of the 70s, we had none of this. Witnessing and interaction was one-on-one. It might be in singing in the public park, baptisms on the beach, visiting a “Christian House” (young christians living communally), a home Bible study or prayer meeting. The church I went to, a black pentecostal church that welcomed hipees, was jam packed to the rafters because people were excited about Jesus and the Spirit of God was so obviously present. If non-believers came, they were awed by the expressions of kingdom love and life. There was nothing “seeker sensitive” about it. There was no money for multi-media extravaganzas and theater seats. Yet thousands met the Lord, most of those Jesus-people grew up and became mothers and fathers, got careers, went to college, remained faithful Christians (Most of my friends) and are now sitting in pews of seeker-friendly churches wondering where the Holy Spirit went. And our children seem to lack a deep commitment, leaving for better entertainment elsewhere. Expensive electronic entertainment, expensive buildings, professionals and cunsumptive culture seem to have co-opted the work of the Holy Spirit. Bummer.
Gotta go along with this.
I feel God uses men not methods. Too often we try and get methods instead of making sure our men are right! This is evidenced by the way folk latch onto the latest new thing coming from anywhere as long as it seems to work.
We are currently undergoing the Rabbit Warren Purpose for a drivel life craze (Lord have mercy!)
I recall reading somewhere that the “church” is always 10 years behind the world in methodes etc, perhaps this is still true?
Expensive electronic entertainment, expensive buildings, professionals and cunsumptive culture seem to have co-opted the work of the Holy Spirit. Bummer.
Double bummer!
December 12, 2007 at 16:48
and for what it’s worth . . . i’d like to respond to jeff.
i hope you’re not implying that what i wrote was lofty speech. or even carried with it any wisdom. i’ll be the first to tell you that either one isn’t the case. i’m a rambling fool who is dumb enough to dream and imagine. and if anything the verse you used it is out of context. and would fit better contextually in my proposal . . . that fancy powerful light shows, great oratory sermons, and million dollar sound systems are the wisdom of men. and paul led change with fear, trembling, and humility. there is not much humility in your typical megachurch on sunday morning with sermons, music, lights, and sound systems. not to mention the salaries and mortgages. this translates into the “audience” who instead of practicing humility on a weakly basis, continue to perpetuate lifestyles that lack it. big houses with extra rooms. cars with poor gas mileage. clothes made by 14 year old girls. surely, you can see the disconnect of using paul’s words against my proposal when in all likelihood they fit much better in support of these thoughts.
and i’m not trying to make you feel guilty for shopping at wal-mart. we shop at target for crying out loud. but at some point, if we don’t see that what we do with our wallets and where we go with our wallets are theological decisions and acts that we are making . . . then we’re in bad shape.
December 12, 2007 at 16:50
Hmm – the last part of your post caught my attention. Is the statement really true that Christians are trying to “manipulate the culture” into the image of Christ? I seriously doubt this is the primary goal of Christians.
The Scripture tells us we’re to be salt and light in this world. Salt is a preservative, which can have an irritating effect (as in salt in the wound). Light exposes the hidden deeds of darkness (also not a popular concept).
The Word of God tells us we’re to be in this world but not of it. What does this mean? Colossians tells us we’ve been translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son. While we’re in the midst of the world system, we relate to others from God’s perspective.
We cannot expect non-believers to act like believers. Yet, neither are we to allow the sin nature to run amok. We’re to show by our example and our words what is truth and encourage others toward a relationship with Jesus Christ.
In the Book of Judges, everyone did what was right in their own eyes. The result: bondage to foreign nations. God would raise up a judge to defend the people, provide leadership in righteous living and the result was freedom from oppression.
A nation with a foundation of Godly principles will flourish. When those principles are set aside for the “anything goes” mentality, the breakdown of society is unavoidable. As believers, we support Godly principles in government and protection of our freedoms.
December 12, 2007 at 20:56
Chris, just wanted to say thanks for your posts. I’ve been reading them for the last couple days, and it has been very enlightening. At the very least, you are bringing interesting and important issues to my attention, but best of all you are helping me grow. Thanks for wading through the muck in the world to prospect such nuggets for us.
Now, I would like to make a distinction (if this has been made in the primary source, sorry for wasting valuable byte on the internets), everything we do and how we do it is theologically telling, but not necessarily theologically driven. Buying a Blueray DVD player because, dash-it-all I’m worth it, is not a decision that includes reflection of the redemptive relationship between created and Creator. However, it is theologically informative on what I believe will really make me happy.
Should Christian stop empty extravagant spending? Sure, but that is a behavioral problem, only symptomatic of fledgling embrace of certain truths to Godly living.
Furthermore it is impossible, and discouraged to even try, to make every decision in a purely theological context. We all make our decisions based on many influences, and culture is one of them. The problems, and the betrayal of theological processes, begins when we give more weight to our culture than we do to other factors.
The Christian’s role in culture is not to drive or manipulate it, but to complete it. If Christ is for everyone, then anything that comes from Christianity should be for everyone too. But at the same time, we should not enter into the cultural theater just to win a voice for ourselves as an institution, or just to convert souls. That smacks of utilitarian methodology, and will be rightfully blocked off and ridiculed by the world. We must enter into culture with quality and love for the respective medium. It is only by legitimately setting out to do art that we can even expect any fruit to come from it at all.
Here is a challenge to think about: Should Christians’ songs, worship or otherwise, be for the rest of world? After all, it’s their God too.
December 12, 2007 at 21:18
While our churches today are not the temple…the temple (especially the first but even the lesser post-exilic temple) was quite extravagantly decorated. The altar was made from field (undecorated) stones…simple. And they built a pretty golden temple around it. Weird.
Jesus had no problem with a woman pouring incredibly valuable liquid on his feet. He even rebuked someone for saying it should be given to the poor. Weird.
I don’t understand the random extravagance that is allowed (even called for) at times. We’re supposed to feed the poor but we’re not supposed to skimp on the temple? How does that apply now? Our church isn’t the temple but we’re not supposed to decorate our bodies so how does this work out in our lives today?
I just wanted to kind of give the opposite side. My church is about to go into a capital campaign for an educational building…i’m on staff but increasingly not on board. 1 million dollars? THAT’S what God’s church is raising money for? People are dying. We need childrens space…its literally stopping us from growing. But i think i’ld rather sacrifice by being uncomfortable in a sunday school class and save people’s lives than sacrifice financially so we can have a new wing.
Maybe thats just me.
December 12, 2007 at 23:38
I like the comment from Jeff—dogmatic practices.
I do fear that we are trying to turn culture into theological issues rather than offering the idea that culture sometimes is neutral, rather than good or evil. I believe that culturally suburban people are a people group that indeed are worthy of being reached in their culture. Jesus would practice this, I believe, rather than rant against the fact that a certain group of people live in rows of houses and drive large vehicles that cause the rest of the planet to be impoverished. Rather than be political, Jesus would simply go to dinner with Matthew and his rich friends and make great wine for a wedding. It is so easy to criticize our fellow brethren and models for church and much harder to actually DO a model that is different and better.
If you go to the Jesus People movement and say “now THAT is how is should be done” I would say, great—as long as you go in a time machine back 30 years. The idea of Mars Hill and Paul using the culture of his hearers really is a biblical approach. Hudson Taylor took it to great lengths by even dying his hair black to relate to Chinese people.
Culture is NOT theology. Yes, there are bad things in our culture. The church is not here to change culture or create culture, but to fulfill her mission to reach the world. Let’s not fear the freedom we have in that and throw stones at ourselves because we simply are attempting to live out Jesus in a new millennium.
December 13, 2007 at 12:00
Anna: Personally, I don’t think Christians should be manipulating culture into the image of Christ at all. However, not everyone agrees with that statement. There are some Christian ministries that are expressly trying to align the culture with Christianity: Focus on the Family comes to mind immediately.
When we try to change government or culture to line up with our Christian ideals we’ll necessarily be imposing our brand of Christianity on non-Christians. I’m no biblical scholar, but the difference with the Israelites seems to be that as God’s people they were doing whatever they wanted, not that the culture around them was bad. Jesus never gave us the moral high ground to force morals on those that aren’t under His will. I’m a strong believer that the kingdom of God is vastly different and much better than what the United States currently is, was, or will be.
Kyle: You’re making me blush. Flattery aside, good distinction on theologically telling and driven.
Chris: It’s not just you!
December 13, 2007 at 13:13
....Someone mentioned a tightrope. I’ll get back to that.
There are so many good comments in here, all trying to figure out how the church should present itself to the culture: Bare bones? Mega-church? Acoustic guitars or full orchestra? here’s a few things to consider:
1. We use what we know. We will inevitably be drawn to the tools and methods with which we are familiar. Partly because we are comfortable with them (and UNcomfortable with the unfamiliar), partly because when you’re trying to do a good job, you use the best material available and within your means. Which brings me to point number 2.
2. We’re SUPPOSED to be doing our best. For some that may be walking the street passing out pamphlets in hopes that a few won’t land in the trash. For others it’s a huge sanctuary that’s lovely and inviting and seats as many people as possible so that no one gets left out. Our error, as Christians, is that we assume my best is also “best” for someone else. Not so, as the book of Romans points out. In the body there are MANY parts and all parts have NOT the same purpose. My best is not your best, and my church’s best is not your church’s best. Stop with the judging already!
3. That being said, the church is constantly being judged internally AND externally. On the one hand, we’re pretty cheesy: Low tech, shoddy workmanship, poor writing/editing, half-assed instrumentalization, mediocre graphics or visual aids, yadda, yadda, yadda. On the other hand it is vilified for spending money on lavish churches, lighting and sound systems, bigger- better facilities, preachers in $3,000 suits, yadda, yadda, yadda. In the very old days, the church spent generations building a mega-facility “fit for God”. I tend to think of it, not so much as wasteful spending but as a sort of ‘welfare system for the Middle Ages.’ From father, to son, to grandson, there was meaningful work for the hands and a little bread on the table. Which was it? Excess or charity?
4. The church walks this tightrope every day in dozens of ways: Faith vs. Works; Mercy vs. Justice; Being IN the culture but not OF the culture; Caring for our families vs. Giving to the Poor; Freedom to eat “meat offered to idols” vs. being a stumbling block to weaker Christians or the unsaved, Free will vs. predestination; etc. etc. etc.! The fact is, it IS a tightrope. And any time we lean too far one way or the other, we will have left the path of grace and wisdom. Every Christian needs to rely on the Spirit of God inside themselves for their personal calling and they need to know that they will NOT generally get the same calling as the next guy. You may be called to work in poverty while another ministers to the very wealthy. The one should not judge the other. Some people will come to Christ through a one-on-one act of relationship. Others will hear God speaking through a mighty choir; a video; a pithy sermon. Just like the human body needs all it’s parts, and the body of believers needs all it’s parts, so, too, can God use every faithful effort to create an environment in which his message may be heard. The key is to listen to what the Spirit is telling YOU to do and quit worrying about what message is being received by someone else. By the way, that goes for ALL aspects of our lives, not just where and how we worship.
Of course, if we actually took that idea to heart, we’d be spending more time DOING Christ’s work and less time discussing how other people were doing it, and the blogmeisters might have to go get a “real” job!
December 14, 2007 at 06:08
The key is to listen to what the Spirit is telling YOU to do and quit worrying about what message is being received by someone else. By the way, that goes for ALL aspects of our lives, not just where and how we worship.
Well said Karen!
December 14, 2007 at 08:01
Karen: I like your point about, “we’d be spending more time DOING Christ’s work and less time discussing how other people were doing it.” When it comes time to stop discussing and praying and to follow how the spirit is leading us, we need to actually do it.
Pops and Karen: I would agree that it’s not our responsibility to make our message fruitful, but I would back off on not worrying about it at all. To me, loving someone also means taking consideration how my message affects them. So that conviction drives me to ask questions about how the church interacts with the surrounding culture. How does our message change if we have also aligned ourselves with a culture that goes contrary to Jesus’ teachings on wealth and possessions?
December 14, 2007 at 11:21
thanks for bringing the comments back to center chris.
December 14, 2007 at 16:50
Chris, that is the point we are making here and I think you have misunderstood us.
The so called churchy thingy is spending too much time and money trying to keep pace with the world so that it can “relate” to those of our times.
To me what Karen was saying is spot on: “Stop worrying about how you relate to these people, let God lead you the way He wants you to go and follow that. Stop trying to copy what God is perhaps doing with someone else because that is Gods plan for them which is not necessarily Gods plan for you.”
So I feel that we have not gone off track here as josh suggests, but Chris, your possible misunderstanding of what Karen was saying and my interpretation or perception of what Karen was saying is in fact what has gone off track.
Being led by God would incorporate continuous interaction, prayer and love for the people you are dealing with – Gods way!
December 14, 2007 at 18:00
Just a thought – if we are trying to relate to people as per “their times”, are we not in actual fact trying to relate to the “devils times” here?
The world is moving in the direction and culture that the devil wants and so I think this reinforces Karens point that we should be doing things the way God wants which may not be to follow the Punk/Heavy Metal/Dress code/Entertainment/Bawdville etc way?
Just a thought.
December 14, 2007 at 23:39
Chris (and Josh);
I think Pop gets it. I understand that you are worried that THE CHURCH has gotten too emmeshed in the present culture and is trying perhaps to fit in a little too well. And, yes, I suppose someone needs to take a look at that situation from time to time just in case it has gone too far, or is so entrenched in what is “popular” that we are no longer presenting the Gospel at all. And, of course, who better than us for the task?
But, other than preaching heresy from the pulpit, or a choir rendition of John Lennon’s “Imagine”, (I always change the words to ‘Imagine there’s a heaven…a hell below us…above us more than sky…) isn’t this really just the old debate about traditional hymns vesus “praise songs”?
My own pastor admitted in church last Sunday that he converted late enough in life to have never become familiar with many of the old hymns! (Talk about heresy!!) But I diverge…
Point is, a hundred years from now (rapture or global warming notwithstanding) some guy will be blogging (or whatever they call it then) about whether fly-in churchs (hover cars, you know) are the devil’s workshop or if people should be worshiping with one hand on the TV like in the good old days!
Worrying about sound systems and floodlights? Why don’t we just go all the way and give up appendectomies and transplant surgery because they weren’t available in Jesus’ day? We’re supposed to be using every tool available to us—in accordance with our gifts and calling—to get the Word out that Jesus came to save the lost. Modern technology can be “evil” in many ways—exploitive of the environment, or put to evil purposes, comes to mind—but barring that sort of application, if it helps bring someone to Christ, how can using it be “bad”? It may not be appropriate for the audience you are trying to reach, or God may have called you to a simpler form of worship. But, and here’s my original point, you are not in charge of what God has called another to do. You’re in charge of what He calls YOU to do.
December 15, 2007 at 00:04
Chris said: ”....I would back off on not worrying about it [the fruit of the message] at all. To me, loving someone also means taking consideration how my message affects them…. How does our message change if we have also aligned ourselves with a culture that goes contrary to Jesus’ teachings on wealth and possessions?”
I never recommended not worrying about “the message.” But how can you be listening to the Spirit and NOT be considering the impact on the person or people you are trying to reach? Or how could the Spirit lead you to align yourself contrary to Jesus’ teachings?
Does it happen that “ministry” goes awry or does more harm than good? Oh, yes. But are those events the result of listening to the Spirit? No. They are the result of going our own way and deciding that we know better than God how things should be run.
Ultimately, Chris is right. It is good for the body to remain aware that even those of us who call ourselves by Christ’s name are prone to temptation: and that there is an obligation within the “family” to guide those who go astray back into the fold. I just doubt that it’s going to be the size of the woofers that grieves the Spirit.
December 15, 2007 at 08:16
Yes, the body of Christ is composed of many parts and none of them can say to the rest, “I don’t need you.” “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” (Ro 14:4)
We need to make a distinction between the message and the manner in which the message is presented. The message must never change, but the presentation must change because culture, which is man-made, is always changing. If that leads to “waste” in the church so be it. Is it really waste if it reaches people for Christ?
December 15, 2007 at 11:58
Thank you for all of your comments, discussions like this are why we do ThinkChristian. I’ll be back on Monday with more detailed responses, but for now some quick things:
Pops and Karen: Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify your points. My apologizes. I love forums like this because we can discuss these things from around the world, but clearly there are limitations.
Pops: “Just a thought – if we are trying to relate to people as per “their times”, are we not in actual fact trying to relate to the “devils times” here?” I think this is hitting closer to what Josh had intended with his post. The question is not whether or not we use the methods that are familiar to our culture, but whether or not we’re gladly entrenching ourselves in everything that our culture is, including the things that go contrary to what Jesus taught.
Andy: “If that leads to “waste” in the church so be it. Is it really waste if it reaches people for Christ?” Excellent point, it’s easy for me (I’m probably not alone) to see things in a “cost per conversion” light. I haven’t developed this next thought yet, so please shoot me down if it’s wrong, but in Revelation entire churches are condemned for various things, things that might very well have been bringing people to Christ. If the church in the US has the money to end, say, poverty right now and it doesn’t do it because they all need new buildings how does that align itself with Christ’s message? Again, not developed, please feel free to tear it apart.
December 15, 2007 at 13:19
Hi Chris –
I don’t see Focus on the Family as trying to manipulate or align the culture with Christian values. Their work involves preserving and reclaiming this nation’s values of family and decency, which happen to coincide with the Judeo-Christian ethic.
The family is the primary building block of society. Without it, everything else crumbles.
With the intense attacks upon the family unit, I’m thankful someone has the courage to stand up and defend it.
Question: Have you researched Focus on the Family’s materials, read their Citizen magazine, or any of their books for yourself?
December 15, 2007 at 13:22
No apologies are need. We are discussing some very fine distictions here and I love what everyone has contributed. A couple of points, regarding the devil’s increasing [?] control of culture and wasteful spending, from the last posts really grabbed me.
I visited the Castle of Warrick in England some years ago. In one part of the castle is a cube, about 18”-20” square, dug into the floor and covered by a metal grate that locks. At some point in history, good “Christians” took their criminals (petty theft, perhaps?) and stuffed thier whole body into the cube, locked the grate, and left them there to die. [No food. No water. But they could breathe. It might have taken WEEKS to die…]
Can we really say that the devil is more in control of culture today than in the past? Or that submitting to cultural norms is more demonic now than at other points in history?
The question really is: are we using culture because we are consumed by it, or because we are trying to reach the culture we live in? Are we hip-hopping to the devil’s beat or God’s? It’s not a bad question, I just don’t know that we’re in charge of the answer. Let’s look at this another way…some of this discussion has focused on how the church should be spending its money:
The “Culture” is very obsessed with the bottom line…what things cost…and always complaining that something costs too much (like running the government, a new church building, or a gallon of gas) and saying that we have better things to spend our money on (like a new SUV, a Nintendo Wii, or dinner at Ruth’s Chris). Evaluating whether The Church is spending it’s money wisely based on the very human and cultural concerns of best business practices, Capitalism, Socialism, or the bottom line is, I’m afraid, very IMPRACTICAL in God’s eyes. [I. Cor. 1:20 or 3:19] Jesus rebuked Judas for his very practical concern for the poor while Mary was praised for her extravagance. Is it always bad to play by the rules they taught you at business school? NO. But it’s not always good, either.
Our wisdom is not God’s wisdom…which takes us all the way back to following the Spirit’s leading as individuals and spending less time worrying about how someone else has been called to worship. I would say ‘watch and learn’ and if you find that the HEART of a particular ministry is unbiblical, then perhaps it’s time to call two or three together to confront and guide…
December 16, 2007 at 01:25
OK, I just read Josh Brown’s post (which I should have done before I commented the first time!).
If ‘waste’ means there are temporary fads and transient products in the church—music/architecture/sermons which have little lasting power or artistic value—that doesn’t concern me too much provided the message is getting out, provided the ‘job is getting done’ of making disciples of all people and teaching them to do everything He has commanded.
On the other hand, the waste that results from poor stewardship of what God has given us is of great concern. Ezekiel 34:17-19 comes to mind. Some non-believers are put off by what they see as excessive spending on the buildings, etc. If we are wasting just like the world wastes, that diminishes our witness for Jesus—it clouds our message. We must have the message in our hearts and be living it out. With Jesus, the ends never justified sinful means. The churches in Revelation were justly rebuked for things (self-centeredness, false teaching, indifference, complacency etc.) that clouded the message and raised the question of whether they understood the message they had been entrusted with.
“Everything that we do and how we do it are just as theological as our doctrines and treatises.” How about this: What is value-neutral in our culture can be used to present the message, but what is sinful in our culture must be avoided, or it will negate the message. Our understanding of what is good or sinful must be based on the Word rather than on religious cultural norms.
There does seem to be some tension between the need to present the message in the local language and the fact that the message should have a subversive effect on the local culture. Our message, if properly presented, will be comprehensible to all, offensive to many, and life-changing to some.
December 16, 2007 at 03:54
Our wisdom is not God’s wisdom…which takes us all the way back to following the Spirit’s leading as individuals
I like what you are saying here Karen and I think this is important.
We can not and should not imitate what God is doing in other places – we need to seek God for our community, our field where He has placed us.
For me this is actually a minefield because my work in the field is in the biking community and if one is not part of that culture then one will not be accepted and nothing that you say will be accepted.
However, one can not become so much a part of that culture that no one can see any difference between you and them. (I hope that is not misunderstood!)
But on the other hand, does one become a satanist to be able to minister to satanists? I don’t think so but one can come out of that culture and have access to it because of your experience in it.
Then, when in the biking culture do I purchase the most expensive motor cycle every year because affordability is not an issue or do I limit myself to an acceptable and reliable motor cycle and rather spend the other money on helping some one else.
Do I purchase at my maximum affordability level to compete with sound systems, lights etc that “worldy” bands use or do I have a reasonable system and utilise the other money for helping the poor?
How close do we have to align ourselves adn at what cost?
The point about the churches in Revelation is a good one Chris!
December 17, 2007 at 12:04
Anna: To be brief, I have read Focus on the Family published materials and listened to their radio broadcasts. They have done fantastic things within Christianity for the family, providing excellent advice and biblical council to Christians. For that I’m truly grateful.
I merely cite them as an example of an organization that is actively trying to manipulate the culture and government to align with Christianity. I happen to disagree with this stance because Jesus routinely denies bringing about his kingdom through the use of government, and makes a very clear case for the separation of the two. FotF is not the only organization that I disagree with on this issue, they’re just the one I have the closest connection to.
December 17, 2007 at 12:16
Karen and Pops: You’re helping me clear up some distinctions in my mind, so thanks. I have no authority to judge a person’s heart about their methodology. This is something I need to remember.
“I would say ‘watch and learn’ and if you find that the HEART of a particular ministry is unbiblical, then perhaps it’s time to call two or three together to confront and guide…”
You’re spot on in regards to individuals and churches we’re not a part of. This is something I really really need to remind myself of, as it’s very easy to become self-righteous. I absolutely need to ask these questions of myself. But if entire churches/people groups/nations are going to be judged, then shouldn’t we be asking those questions of the church as a whole as well? (That’s not rhetorical, I’m actually looking for an answer).
December 17, 2007 at 14:30
But if entire churches/people groups/nations are going to be judged, then shouldn’t we be asking those questions of the church as a whole as well? (That’s not rhetorical, I’m actually looking for an answer).
Hi Chris
Your question is something I still battle with.
May I be so bold as to suggest that the job of asking questions is that of The Judge and if I presume to ask questions relating to things that I am not directly involved with, I am applying for a job position that is not vacant, nor will it be!
To clarify this further I would like to explain to you that one of the works I am involved in is more of an enquirers meeting than a “churchy type thingy.” I do not know if you can access my profile?
We get a number of people in who have attended various denominations/fellowships and have been hurt. Naturally they only tell us their side of the story but even if you discount the story 50% there are some pretty rough stories out there.
On the other side, I attend a fraternal meeting where I get to meet some of these leaders and it is a huge task for me not to get into a discussion about what I have heard about their meetings because my calling is to be a Brother and to love them.
My sole comfort in this is that I have enough to answer for in my life, they are going to have to answer for theirs.
Of course one may say that we are to warn, rebuke, instruct etc etc, however I have come to a realisation that if there are God’s kids in the wrong place, He will somehow or other get them out of there and into the right place – it is more than enough for me to keep my plate clean and clear – not always with any degree of success I might add!
I have also come to realise that there is a good reason why God is called God – He pretty much knows what He is doing and those that love Him will be kept by Him against the most amazing odds.
Another theory I have, is that the biggest hindrance to God correcting things in a certain place at a certain time is perhaps my interference. This distracts the person I am trying to educate from hearing God’s voice because I am so loud in his ear.
On the other hand perhaps they are doing exactly what God wants; it is just that God is under no obligation to reveal His plans and purposes to me in regard to those people and so I do not have all the infrmation at my disposal and thus my assessment is flawed.
I have also learnt that He appointed some to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, pastors and teachers and now matter how many different translations I read I have not yet found one that says He also appointed police!
I trust this is of some assistance my Brother!