“Christians should be having great sex lives! We should be having better sex than anybody else! So drop your inhibitions at the door of your own house.”
That’s Joe Beam, a Southern preacher out of the old school, a self-described “book-chapter-and-verse guy,” and leader of the Christian ministry Family Dynamics in Tennessee.
Then why such controversial talk, and in front of large audiences made up of married, straight, conservative Christians?
The information he dispenses is a mix of scriptural interpretation and mainstream sexology. He does not speak in euphemisms or metaphors and his plain spokeness makes a few listeners squirm, at first. But Beam is also part entertainer with a patter that is almost vaudevillian in its timing: “Why can women be multiorgasmic and men not? Well, I’ve decided God just likes you better! ... What’s the difference between a woman with PMS and a Doberman? Lipstick.”The humor and the brazen talk, coming from a man who is not only one of them, but a leader who rubs elbows with James Dobson and Jerry Falwell, gives them permission to relax and hear his message.
It’s a simple one: Sex is good. Good sex makes people happy. It deepens relationships. So it helps marriages last and that pleases God and makes society better.
Check out the extensive MSNBC coverage of Beam, including an interview on the “Today” show:
One preacher’s message: Have hotter sex
Minister Joe Beam says good Christian marriages walk on the wild side
And what do you think? Is this just too racy for believers? Or is it a breath of fresh air in a Puritanical church culture?
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March 17, 2007 at 11:49
I find these kinds of presentations very disturbing. I may be wrong, but it appears that the “church” is hopping on the world’s bandwagon in it’s obsession with sex. We had a new “church” organized in our city and it proceeded to advertise on several local billboards. They displayed two sets of feet hanging out from between sheets, one set on top the other on the bottom, with the words “Christians have the best sex ever!” Is this really the message we want to promote to the “world”? Of course sex has it’s place in our lives, but it dominates our culture to it’s detriment and continues the myth that it is the most important thing in life…which it isn’t.
March 17, 2007 at 12:34
What do we get when we read the Song of Solomon? A hot sexual and intimate relationship. Its a gift from God and it is to be enjoyed by us (within marriage of course). With that said, lets not let “culture” decide what is good and what is not. Let it be a mutual respect and connection between the lovers (spouses).
March 17, 2007 at 14:12
Amen! 1 Cor 7:1-5
March 17, 2007 at 14:22
Okay, after reading the back pages, I have a reservation or two.. I think that our sexual activity should always be at the pleasure and for the pleasure of our spouse.. The Msnbc article doesn’t likely doesn’t give the whole context, but I would say masturbation can be spiritually dangerous, and should only be undertaken at the direction and pleasure of our spouse.
March 17, 2007 at 17:31
I didn’t see the words “married” or sex between a male and female in the catch phrase. Yes, “marriage is honorable and the bed is undefiled”, however, the Christian focus is not sex it is Christ. Whatever Heaven is, it is certainly better than sex.
March 17, 2007 at 18:04
I am not disturbed by the direct sex-talking preacher. What disturbs me, however, is that many American Christians have become legalistic, puritanical, and tense when it comes to sex. (This is the same legalistic attitude that frowns upon freedom in worship, is fearful of engaging “real sinners”, keeps God in a tight pseudo-theological box, and prides itself in performance-based religion.) Jesus’ solution to sin and wickedness (be it sex obsession or self-righteousness) was never legalism, but liberty through an experience with Truth (Jn 8:32). How can a lust-dripping world of sexual sin find liberty in Jesus if we, the pillar and foundation of truth (1Ti 3:15), suppress sex truths? And I don’t mean this hyper-general, gray, overly theoretical and abstract monologue for 25 minutes on a Sunday morning. Christians and lost people alike are starved for specific and practical truth, instruction, and help concerning sex. Profound, specific, direct, and cut-to-the-chase help. I have worked with sex addicts for years, and let me tell you, that glossed over, abstract, generalized sex talk doesn’t even scratch their surface! Sexual attitudes and behavior involve teh whole being-spirit, soul, body…past, present, future. All people are in need of profound and practical sexology from a biblical base. Of course, sex is not the center of life-Jesus is. And, sex is more important to some people than others-we are all unique in our biochemistry and calling. However, in general, sex is a very critical part of human personality, relationality, physicality, and even spirituality. Ever wonder why the sign of God’s covenant with Abraham was on his sexual organ (circumcision)? One only has to read the myriad of biblical passages involving sex to understand how integral it is to humanity and God. My plea is to all believers in Christ…rediscover Eden. All humans are hungering and searching for Eden-its bliss, wonder, and fulfillment. Eden is Eden because God is there; the hunger and search centers on Him. Yet, this same God said His own creative work was “not good” until Adam and Eve were together in Eden (Gen 2:18). Sex is a part of Eden, let’s rediscover this reality fearlessly.
March 17, 2007 at 18:04
I do think that Christians should be having good sex lives but of course within the context of marriage. Now that said, I think that this article is very out there but has the truth in it because of the Song of Solomon. This has the same kind of things in it and in the right context it is so true of sex in marriage with your spouse. These kind of things need to be preached about because sex is good and it is not the number one but it is up there in the ranking.
March 18, 2007 at 02:07
I think this peacher’s liberal take on sex misses the point. What does “best sex” mean? Is it merely finding a holy justification for the carnal and physical gratification of the flesh just because the bible “did not say you can’t do it” (e.g. masturbating or vibrators) It’s not so much the act that is in question here, but it’s WHY we commit sex and the process of it. If you truly love your spouse, you would have good sex becase you love her. But what this guy is preaching is loving “sex” in itself.
March 18, 2007 at 07:13
Now, let’s talk. The pulpit along with the Word of God can be a forum for anything. What concerns me is the spin the established media places on the importance of some issues. Sex/intercourse within the confines of heterosexual marraige has always been blessed by God. Here’s the problem we tend to see it from a carnal standpoint and not a spiritual one.
As Christians in today’s society (especially with time winding up) we have been given a commission to go, teach, make disciples and baptize. Everything else; all the teachings in the world on prosperity, success, self-esteem and even great sex are of no consequence if we are not practicing the elements of the “Great Commission”. The Media in subconscious ways is an instrument of distraction in this regard. Having said that I will say we are not wrong in the discussion of this subject we have an obligatioin to those who are in darkness to be light. The sex talk should not superceed the need to seek and to save. I have babbled enough.
In his Love,
Tommy
March 18, 2007 at 08:42
Hmm…
I wonder what the apostle Paul would have to say…
March 18, 2007 at 08:43
Why is it any surprise that Christians should want to be just like the world when it comes to sex? We have been more influenced by our pagan culture’s distorted and mythologized idea of sex than by Scripture. There is a collective sexual inferiority complex emerging in Christianity formed by viewing thousands of hours of Hollyworld’s bigger-than-real-life on-screen sexual theatrics (mostly promiscuous and adulterous), consuming countless television sitcom sexcapades that promote fun and funny sex without restraint or consequences, and buying into the oversexualized Cosmo-type magazines that teach and preach self-centered sex as the barometer of satisfied human existence. By buying completely into the contraceptive mentality that underlies the sexual revolution, we have bought into the corresponding lie that “good sex” alone, divorced from potential childbearing, is the goal not just of our marital life, but of all of life. We now go to culture to define “good sex.” We want to be like the world—it seems more “fun” than Scripture.
The two-fold purpose of sex is clear in Scripture: 1) to provide a pleasurable physcial experience to express the spiritual “oneness” of marriage to one’s spouse (opposite sex); and 2) to provide the means to “fill the earth” with children. One without the other is a distortion of biblical sexuality. Sex, by God’s design, was never meant to be a self-centered end in itself, but that is the cultural lie we have bought into as Christians. Let’s be really clear: it is our sin nature that distorts the ideal of marital oneness and the blessing of children, and which causes Paul to say it is “better to marry than to burn.” Self-centered sex, even in marriage, is a distortion of the biblical design.
But by God’s perfect and eternal design, we have freedom in the Spirit to be as free and as pleasure-centered as we want to be in bed with our spouses. There should be “nothing between us,” which includes pagan and cultural ideas of sex, and “I’m smarter than God” contraceptive devices to try to circumvent what God designed for our good and blessing. That the marriage bed should be “undefiled” goes beyond just infidelity. It should also be undefiled by pagan and cultural notions of sexuality.
March 18, 2007 at 09:34
Just one comment and maybe a bit off-topic, but what’s with the word “Puritanical”? Are we trying to say that the Puritans were a bunch of boring people who thought that pleasure was purely evil? Because, as a huge fan of Jonathan Edwards, that is NOT what I see. Let’s drop the word “Puritan” from the list of synonymous with “Boring.” What I have seen, they were anything but!
March 18, 2007 at 09:59
My wife and I attended a Weekend to Remember conference in February. I highly recommend it. There was a portion of the conference that dealt with sexual intimacy in all its graphic detail: body parts were named, statistics, you name it.
My take is that for too long the church didn’t deal with any of these issues and adopted a fortress mentality in which it defended itself against the wickedness of the age. We never went on the offensive, so to speak, and countered the corrupt, secular view of sexuality with a balanced, biblical—and fun—view.
The result is that we are afraid to bring up these issues, while marriages suffer because men and women who grew up in church never learn healthy sexual behavior.
The Christian sexual revolution has already begun, as evidenced by this article. Better to learn about sex in church than on a bathroom wall or on the playground somewhere.
March 18, 2007 at 10:44
I am glad that the church is addressing real problems and needs. We as Christians at some point decided that we can’t discuss this or that in church. The church should be the one place we can run to to discuss issues and problems and get Godly advice on how to take care of them .
March 18, 2007 at 14:35
Jesus himself was extremely controversial. Among other things, the Pharisees – and even John the Baptist – thought he enjoyed the pleasures of the flesh too much. “Winebibber” and “glutton” are among the epithets they hung on him.
March 19, 2007 at 09:14
There is a deep profound secret (if I may call it that) that sexual unity is considered “oneness” in scripture. Remember that when a man unites with a harlot or adulteress woman, the bible says that you become “one” with her (thus the emphasis on avoiding such behavior). Sex was, is, an will continue to be a deep spiritual connection between two human beings. A gift from God that “unites” two souls into a deep gratification of both flesh and spirit. Lets not call all pleasures of the flesh (body) “wrong”. Flesh (in the Bible) is more focused on the “sinful” nature than the actual body.
March 19, 2007 at 10:27
I can appreciate the boldness of this pastor. Unfortunately, society is not ready to accept this type of boldness. So What!! The topic of sexual relations should be addressed in the church and the realm in which God intended for any sexual union to take place. It is timeout for sugar coating the facts of life. Divorces are on the rise and if the secular world took a peek inside the church, we are nowhere near perfect. This pastor apparently addressed a concern and there is nothing disturbing about that. I love the what Paul wrote in the Bible that “it is better to marry than to burn”. Paul chose not to marry but he knew that “flesh” was evil.
March 19, 2007 at 10:47
Moe said: Lets not call all pleasures of the flesh (body) “wrong”. Flesh (in the Bible) is more focused on the “sinful” nature than the actual body.
I would only add that one can sin sexually even in a godly marriage. Self-centered sexual gratification at the expense of one’s spouse can also be “fleshly” behavior. What makes it sinful is not the drive and desire for pleasure and oneness, which are good things by God’s design (part of his “good” creation), but the fulfillment of those drives and desires without respect to what “oneness” actually means, not just physically, but even more so spiritually. Even in sex, we must “live by the Spirit” and display the “fruit of the Spirit,” in order to avoid the walking in the flesh. If we define “good” sex by the standards of a pagan culture that has no understanding of flesh and spirit, in my mind we “defile” the marriage bed and distort God’s design.
March 19, 2007 at 14:28
Praise God. I also attended the weekend to remember conference (hello Jay),and it was a blessing to our marriage, especially on the topic of sex.
Sex was created by God as a gift to married couples;and the church has been put in place to teach and enforce believers about the gifts that God has in store for us in the Bible; therefore, avoiding the topic, would be like taking away from the Bible-which we all know is sin.
Besides, I would rather my children learn about sex at church (thru the word of God) than the lies that are being spread at schools’.
March 19, 2007 at 14:46
Christian M: Well said. I agree with you 100%, which is why my first post reads, “Let it be a mutual respect and connection between the lovers (spouses).”
March 19, 2007 at 15:53
After almost 37 years it’s still good. Thanks to God who created us to be together.
March 19, 2007 at 18:01
I hope and pray that everyone would give careful consideration to the contrasts that Christian M points out between the perspective of Holy Spirit and that of the pagans on the topic and purposes of sex. It is seems to be common for those in the Church to readily except the world’s ideas on those things that the scriptures don’t give a strict commandment concerning. I feel that those things that aren’t given precise directives to how one aught to think concerning them is because the only way that they can be understood is by that inner determinator,the Holy Spirit. There is a meaning to be understood from the fact that Paul did follow 1Cor.7:1-5 with vs.6:”I say this as a concession, not as a command”. When the Pharisees asked Jesus:” Why then did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”, He promptly corrected them in saying:”Moses permitted …..”. I am not trying to show a difference between Jesus’s idea of marriage and the modern Christian’s, but the difference between a “command” and a “permitance”;between a “command” and a “concession”; which both Christ and Paul were quick to point out.
March 19, 2007 at 18:53
The bible is clear that a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ is the world’s greatest gift, not sex. Period. His statement is off-base at best, and sinfully-inspired at worst.
Sex, I believe is probably God’s greatest gift to all mankind, meant to be enjoyed by a man and a woman committed to one another for life (marriage). Sexuality seems to be at the core level of who human beings are, at soul-level. But sex can’t compare to the joy in Christ. Nor should sex and a life with Christ be thought of as oppositional or substitutes. Sex is an expression of love between humans. Christ is a divine love, one from God to man. (Vertical vs. Horizontal, you know?) When we obey God’s commands for sex, we gain! I do agree that Christians need to present sex as a sacred, enjoyable gift from God, in a marriage. By submitting our sex to God, he will make it great, and bless us through it, I believe.
I haven’t had sex; I’m waiting to be married. I want to have sex very much; and by waiting, I believe that I’m allowing myself to experience it the way God intended, the best way. I’m not against experimentation with ‘positions’ and techniques, and I hope that my future wife knows that sex between spouses is NOT a sin, and that it is an act of love and service.
What I’m opposed to (what I believe God is opposed to) is sex for selfish motivation, for self, for pity. As a married man or woman, I think we should seek to serve our spouse by offering them the best sex we can. Sex is to express LOVE. Sex that expresses “I love you!”; “I don’t want anyone but you!”; “You’re the man!”; “Again!”; “Please one more time!”; “Thank you, Lord!” Sex that is part of our worship to Jesus; sex that comforts us and heals us, and gives us strength for the fight, because we know the love of our spouse. Sex that causes celebration, for us to say to God, “Thanks for giving me and my wife/husband the gift of sex!”
I think he’s wrong about masturbating, anal sex, and phone sex… again I’m not married—maybe it changes once your’e married—but for an unmarried man like me, I believe it’s wrong.
March 19, 2007 at 22:29
Man, This preacher really started something, didn’t he? It really is nothing new. Just swept under the rug. What we have to do as Christians as the fellow says is “eat the fish and throw away the bones”. If you get my meaning. The word of God is our instruction for all the issues of life, even sex.
March 20, 2007 at 01:43
I think its obvious and neat that all agree on the important points: God created sex, sex is good, the lost world has distorted it, it should be enjoyed freely and mutually in the marital context, Jesus and His eternal purposes must remain the motivating center of life. Praise the Lord! I think the opinion splinters, however, when the discussion touches on aspects of sexuality that the Bible does not directly address. This is where I believe the Romans 14 passage is perfect; it pertains to life in the “gray areas”. Verse 1(NIV) exhorts believers to “not pass judgment on disputable [gray] matters.” Even though the historical context pertained to disputes about diet and Mosaic traditions, the principles are timelessly viable and applicable to the sex dicussion. After prayer, dialogue, and counsel, some Christian couples may feel more liberal in the bedroom, others more conservative, still others somewhere in-between. In other words, each individual couple will have a unique conviction and seasoning in their sex life. Since Scripture is silent on certain sex specifics/practices, I think Paul’s Romans 14 word fits our discussion nicely. We must make effort to not pass judgment on “disputable matters” (v1), not “look down” on another believer for their different gray-area convictions (v3), maintain peace around what really matters (v17-19), and feel confident about the personal conviction you and the Spirit have come to (v5,22,23). I absolutely LOVE how Paul says that God has accepted, approved, and blessed both believers who have opposing gray-area convictions (v3-8,22,23)!!!
March 21, 2007 at 11:27
The bigger issue, for me, is not about what happens in the privacy of a Christian couple’s bedroom, but just how much detail and description is appropriate, even biblical, when pastors and conference speakers like Joe Beam start talking publicly about sex to large groups of believers. And FTR, I’ve been married 26 years, have four kids and a fabulous wife, have an active family ministry, and am a graduate of a progressive evangelical seminary, a speaker, and author. I’m neither fundamentalist nor prudish. It’s all about what honors and pleases God most.
When Christian leaders, and I think it should be noted that they are almost always men, begin speaking publicly and graphically about what have traditionally been very private and personal matters, to mixed gender groups with both marrieds and singles of any age, I think we run the risk of “defiling” the marriage bed of everyone who is exposed to their “hot sex” Christian talk, and possibly tempting weaker brothers and sisters to lust and sin. Graphic sex talk in the church—with all the uncensored lingo of body parts and fuctions, methods, paraphenalia, and more—simply is NOT justifiable by any biblical principles or precepts. Rather, I would suggest it is fashionable now in evangelicalism ONLY because so many Christians have been influenced by the pagan, secular, oversexed, and promiscuous media (film, TV, radio, print) which have erased all sense of godly and biblical shame and propriety concerning sexuality. Christians have passively bought into a deception that we should be as free and liberated as the actors on Friends, Sex and the City, or Desperate Housewives, but just do it within marriage. The argument goes that if the world is talking graphically about sex, then the church needs to be talking graphically about it, too, and perhaps even more so (after all, we don’t want to be one-upped by secular culture on something that God invented, do we?).
The sad result, in my view, is that the marriage bed, and sex, is no longer sacred, in the sense that Scripture portrays it. Instead, by focusing on the biological act of intercourse, the endless pursuit of greater sexual stimulation, and the obsessive and intrusive man-made avoidance of pregnancy, it has become all about self-centered pleasure. We have designed sex in our own image, and divorced it from the procreation for which God created it (so that pregancy is a “mistake,” rather than God succeeding despite our best efforts to thwart Him). We have “conformed” to the world’s idea of sexuality (Rom 12:2). The best definition of “good sex” in Scripture is in Genesis, where sex that was declared “good” resulted in babies, also “good.” For my money, when pastors will tell Christian couples to simply follow God’s divine design for sexuality and childbearing, both of which are blessings in Scripture, then I’ll say they’re onto something really and truly radical, and are not just mimicking the world.
I’m all for believers having good sex. Not a problem. But is there a line to be drawn in how the church talks about sexuality? And to whom? Should I be hearing about someone else’s sexual experiences in the company of other couples? Is that a defiling of the marriage bed? Is there any concern at all about the effects of graphic sex talks on single Christian young adults? Are we erasing biblical lines of proper shame and propriety by trying so hard to be as liberated about sex talk as the world is? Are there other, more acceptable, ways to help couples and young adults with sexual issues than by simply stripping all of us bare, metaphorically, and publicly and graphically reducing our sexuality to mere biology and physiology? What is God’s heart and God’s best for us sexually?
OK. Rant out. Many will disagree, I’m sure, but I just encourage you to look for the kernels of truth in my field of thoughts. As a pastor, I have an obligation to instruct believers in pursuing the biblical path of greatest blessing sexually, not just in discovering the best method of greatest sexual pleasure. What does it profit a couple to gain sexual ecstasy, but lose the soul of sexual meaning. I’m just concerned we’re losing the soul of sex.
March 21, 2007 at 21:07
It’s interesting that some percieve this as adopting the “world’s perspective.” Just because the church’s misguided teaching on sex for several hundred years allowed “pagans” to co-opt sex doesn’t mean that it’s all bad. Great Sex has always been God’s plan, from the Garden of Eden through Song of Solomon even into the new testament.
God’s truth is evident throughout the world and even “pagans” can discover it if they are looking for it. The sad thing is that sometimes they do before we Christians do.
March 21, 2007 at 23:41
I appreciate the discourse. I’m a 28 year old single woman who strives to remain sexually pure before the Lord. I work with a campus ministry that must engage college students with the reality of the Kingdom of God. College campuses (christian schools included) are sexually charged environments where Christians must be equipped with the capacity to discern good from evil. Honest, frank, and explicit (no pun intended) biblical conversation about sex (and what currently qualifies as sex) is a regular part of discipleship. I’m certain tht this post-modern generation of the college students must be challenged to maintain godly standards, but they will only do so when ministers of the gospel can be real about struggles, temptations, failures, holiness, and the word of God. Times are changing, but God’s standards aren’t. I was raised in a household where truth was highly valued. As I navigate through evangelical circles i’ve discovered that our inbred culture tends to value some truths over other truths. My desire is that students would live God honoring lives with their sexuality surrender to Christ and that people around them would see, inquire and be compelled to follow Jesus. But I also understand that if my Christian students blush and bow out of conversations about sex, some may never know the power of God for salvation and liberation.
We need to talk about sex. We need the Bible to be central. We need to engage the world God and build the kingdom. If we can’t be honest about what we think and feel, I doubt we’ll be taken seriously, and for good reason.
March 22, 2007 at 08:43
This is very saddening to see such blasphemous materials being posted on thinkchristian.net. If we cannot realize this is absolutely false teaching and calling “good evil and evil good”! The Church is on the world’s bandwagon and articles such as this are clear signs.
March 22, 2007 at 09:17
Greg—why do you think it’s blasphemous? What is the false teaching you refer to? Do you feel it’s inappropriate to talk about sex in such detail? Or do you think the underlying message about sex is wrong? You obviously have a different take than a lot of the other commenters above, and I’d be interested to find out why. Can you elaborate? What do you think about some of the issues raised by other commenters?
March 22, 2007 at 10:02
The only thing that worries me about this is that we are putting the joy sex above the joy of Christ. It’s been said but the most important message we need to be getting out there isn’t hey Christians have fun too. we’re not all boring. Yes, I know the church has given off that impression in times past, but let’s not draw people to our God because we have the best sex. Let’s be lights to how awesome our God is and let him draw all men unto himself as we live in the light.
March 22, 2007 at 10:08
Derek, where exactly did you hear this? I’m stumped on that observation.
Maybe it’s that we’re grasping ALL the joy Christ has for us? Why does one joy HAVE to replace or diminish another?
March 22, 2007 at 14:13
mikey: good point on taking the big picture. We are trying to grasp ALL the joy that Christ has given us.
Derek: I agree with your caution of elevating one pleasure above the main thing. The Bible tells us to delight in the Lord – this is the ground of our ultimate happiness. If our joy in sex is rooted in anything shy of the glory of God, then I totally agree that it is wrong and sinful. We’ve got to find our joy ultimately in God and let Him give us the fullest joy in all these other things.
March 22, 2007 at 21:19
Would someone please tell me the scriptural teaching that conveys the message: Jesus died so that we may indulge in all the pleasures that the world has to offer and that our natural self delights in.
Has the doctrine of original sin been completely forgotten? It seems that Christian humanism is the choice of today. And why not? What could be better than a theology that believes the chief purpose of life is to become happy, and God serves this purpose also. He wants what we want.
It seems as though if there is any aspect of life in which one could declare himself an expert and could make it his occupation, a ministry is sure to be launched!
Oh, how I wish that the concern of the Christian was to become like Christ.( This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.1Jn2:5-6) It is true that Christ came to set us free; but it is to serve Him and not ourselves.
March 22, 2007 at 22:38
I too would like to read Greg’s explanation of blasphemy. Somehow I don’t see sex in the marriage bed blasphemous in any way. Regardless of what we all have discussed, we all agree that sex in marriage should be spiritual and fun (I really, really hope that’s the case). Some people can’t dream those two words being together (spiritual and fun). However, We may differ in how wide and how far we take that “fun” but it should be fun and spiritual in every way.
March 23, 2007 at 01:50
When I make a purchase of a routine item such as groceries, shoes, or the like, I don’t ask ‘will this glorify God?’ God is glorified when, as a good steward, I apply appropriate resources to satisfy my needs. When I am intimate with my spouse, I do not ask ‘will this glorify God?’ God is glorified when the experience draws us closer, when we experience the oneness unique to the act of intercourse in marriage, and when we do so in the context of a healthy expression of genuine love for our spouse.
We shouldn’t do everything because we can (all things are lawful but not expedient, says Apostle Paul. However, what makes us think that the God with the imagination to create sex gets bashful when I whip out a widget to stir the lower fires? We don’t necessarily care whether the world thinks of us as boring. We just want to remind everyone that ‘missionary’ is the official position of the Bible so it shouldn’t be the official position of the Church.
March 23, 2007 at 16:54
Moe…I absolutely love your statement that “spiritual” and “fun” can co-exist. You got it man! (Gonna use it often.) We don’t have to establish a caste system for which of God’s joys are more noble and “more God” than others. Paul said that “from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things” (Ro 11:36). Of course, we all know the foundational priority though…Jesus Himself is our pre-eminent joy, our First Love! I’m sure no educated believer disputes that. The good news is that Jesus sometimes uses temporal things to bring us joy, laughter, pleasure, and gladness. Psalm 103:5 says God “satisifies our desires with good things.” Matthew 7:11 says our Father loves to pour out “good gifts” on His children who ask for them. 1Timothy 6:17 says God richly blesses us with “all things.” Here’s my favorite, Ecclesiastes 5:20. Solomon says God will use earthly blessings to bring gladness to a righteous person’s heart, to even distract him/her from life’s harsh realities! Read it for yourselves, its an insightful passage. Song of Solomon 8:6 (New American Standard Bible; original Hebrew) compares eros (sexual) love to “the very flame of the LORD” (Yahweh, the LORD). That should tell us about God’s favorable and wonderful view of sex, if He would use His own manifest presence (fire) as a metaphor for it!!!
March 23, 2007 at 18:30
Andy & Moe (& Greg):
Don’t write off the “blasphemy” charge too quickly. I’m going to take a wild stab at explaining why Greg was so upset. I think he actually read the linked MSNBC article about Joe Beam. If Greg was reacting to that article then I strongly sympathize with Greg’s revulsion with Beam’s words. Were those “wholesome” words befitting one representing Christ, or just explicit, graphic, patently offensive words for anyone to share publicly, much less a retired pastor?!
I will say it again, it’s not about what happens in the “marriage bed” of Christians that is the issue of this blog. It is how far should the church go with public “sex talk” in mixed age and gender audiences? Is there a point at which that kind of talk can become unholy and impure? Has Joe Beam crossed the line with his bodily fluids kinds of jokecracking? Are we so conformed to the world that we have given up any standards of biblical shame and propriety concerning sex? Is sex no longer sacred to the evangelical church?
Here’s a primary dictionary definition of blaspheme: “to speak impiously or irreverently of God or sacred things.” By that definition, Greg is probably right! Impious and irreverent talk about sex, which is certainly a sacred act, can be blasphemous. Jesus certainly wouldn’t blush at explicit sex talk, but I don’t think He would be preaching sexual freedom with explicit descriptions of sexual acts. I think He would lovingly call the church to a higher standard of holiness. Perhaps He is.
March 23, 2007 at 21:49
thought this might be something that would add to the conversation…
love this guy… Matthew Paul Turner seems like a cool dude…
check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HxBom7R-iR8
March 27, 2007 at 21:10
After reading Christian M.’s (and others’) comments, I was horrified by Joe Beam’s terminology. How could a Christian pastor be so impious and offensive? When I viewed portions of Beam’s lecture and read some of his actual comments, I changed my opinion.
It seems that what is offensive to some people is no big deal to others. Some posters assert that Beam was using disrespectful, vulgar terminology and lewd, pornographic descriptions of various types of sexual behavior. This reflects more upon their own comfort level with those terms, not a Biblical injunction regarding such language. I do not feel that Joe Beam’s comments or jokes were anywhere close to vulgar. It was a sex education seminar held in a hotel, directed at helping Christian couples learn techniques for loving one another better. This was NOT a church service, NO ONE was being held captive to listen to a “sermon” on a topic they don’t want to hear while squirming in their seat waiting for communion, NO children or teens appeared to be part of this event.
I will not condemn others for the views they choose to hold about the appropriateness of certain behaviors in their own marriage, or the use of such terminology in their own house. However, I would argue that this vocal, publicly disapproving attitude about frank sex education is one of the things that causes our teens and singles to wonder why all the Christians are having such boring, unfulfilling sex lives and all the unsaved are enjoying sex with their husbands and wives. I agree that the media does not portray sex in a wholesome way. Is Joe Beam portraying sex in an unwholesome way by giving husbands and wives sexual knowledge intended for the strengthening of their marriage? Where else are they going to hear this information? How is the marriage bed “defiled” by learning more about how to make it enjoyable? I feel that those posters who are quoting that Bible verse (Hebrews 13:4) are taking it out of context. Let’s not use the Bible to advance our personal agenda by trying to make it say something it doesn’t.
March 28, 2007 at 14:14
Kerissa said: I feel that those posters who are quoting that Bible verse (Hebrews 13:4) are taking it out of context. Let’s not use the Bible to advance our personal agenda by trying to make it say something it doesn’t.
Eugene Peterson, in his contemporary translation The Message, renders Heb. 13:4: Honor marriage, and guard the sacredness of sexual intimacy between wife and husband. God draws a firm line against casual and illicit sex.
I believe Peterson does a good job at reflecting the intent of the author of Hebrews. It not just about sex, but about the sacredness of sexual intimacy. The Greek word for “undefiled” (amianos) can mean, “free from that by which the nature of a thing is deformed or debased, or its force and vigor impaired.”
My view is that evangelical Christianity, in its misguided attempt to be perceived as free as culture is sexually, is actually defiling and debasing something God created to be “good.” By focusing on sex as little more than a pleasurable physical experience, a biological act that is very little different from a back rub, we are profaning (making common) what God made sacred.
That you cannot even see how Christians like Joe Beam are debasing something God designed to be sacred only suggests, to me, how much you have been influenced by secular culture. Your totally ad hominen statements about teens and singles supposed perceptions are irrelevant, as is your suggestion that I would “condemn” what a married couple does in the privacy of their own bed.
There is no end to books, media, and digital resources on sex, both Christian and secular. Nobody in this oversexed culture should ever have any excuse for not knowing everything there is to know about sex, from erogenous zones, to physiology of genitalia, to the intricacies of the Kama Sutra. It’s all out there! But when Christians go public with sex, it should be to preserve the sacredness of the act as part of God’s holy design. We do not, we cannot, preserve the beauty and sacredness of sex by turning it into something common and cheap. We are talking about toying with and profaning the most seminal (pun intended) matters of life and creation.
March 28, 2007 at 19:39
A few terms should be defined if we are to be fair. Obviously, we would not want to treat sex in a way that is profane. We wouldn’t want to defile that which is sacred. Are these terms being used properly? I looked them up:
“profane”: not respectful of religious practice; blasphemous
“sacred”: connected with God or dedicated to a religious purpose, thus deserving reverence
“Ad hominem” means, literally, “to the man.” It is a personal attack on someone’s character instead of the issue. Christian M. has chosen to state that he believes I (me personally) am influenced by secular culture. That is an example of an “ad hominem” remark.
For the record, I only stated that I would not condemn what views “others” hold about their own behaviors. I didn’t direct those comments at Christian M. or any specific person. Christian M., you seem insulted and if I am at fault in that, I apologize. My opening comment contained a reference to Christian M.’s name because I was making a point there about how some posters portrayed Joe Beam’s comments as lewd and vulgar.
Let me make it clear that by disagreeing with a specific comment, I am not maligning the author’s character nor impugning his/her spirituality. I would disagree with the statement that Joe Beam et al are focusing on sex as little more than a pleasurable physical experience. Rev. Beam made reference to the Bible’s view of sex numerous times in the brief video clips linked with this post. Each point was undergirded with reference back to “what does or doesn’t the Bible say about this?” Don’t we need more of this in every area of discourse? It doesn’t appear that Joe Beam’s motive or modus operandi was to make sex vulgar nor to profane it. It was a sex education seminar that used humor.
If someone feels that private matters should never be referenced with humor, what is your opinion about the original Hebrew in 1 Kings 18:27? The translators chose to use euphemisms here; Elijah actually asks the prophets of Baal if their “god” doesn’t hear them because he’s defecating. There are other such examples to be found in Scripture. (It’s another can of worms to discuss how cultural mores of the translator[s] have affected our view of “Biblical truth.”) Wisecracks and joking can be, but are not implicitly unholy. Conjunctively with this point, Song of Solomon has also been translated with less blunt English terms.
On a different note, if our Christian teens and singles AREN’T thinking that the grass must be greener, someone please give us a good explanation for why studies show they are having sex almost as much, as early, as their non-Christian peers. Is it because they’ve been given the impression from the church that sex is something common, vulgar, and nothing really special? That is not the impression I have gotten from the studies I have read. (Just to be clear, it doesn’t appear that Joe Beam’s seminar was intended for teens or singles, and should not be taken as such.)
Christian M., I have a specific question for you. You’ve used a paraphrase to support your point about what the Bible “intends.” Why? I feel that a literal translation does not support your point, but that is my opinion, respectfully. I still maintain that we should not try to make the Bible say something it doesn’t to advance our personal agenda.
March 29, 2007 at 09:06
Kerissa said: A few terms should be defined if we are to be fair…Are these terms being used properly?
Fair enough. Here are the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary definitions of the terms you singled out from my post. I used each term just as cited below. To answer your question, yes, I used them properly.
PROFANE
1. to violate or treat with abuse, irreverence, obloquy, or contempt (something sacred) : treat as not sacred : DESECRATE, POLLUTE
2. to debase by a wrong, unworthy, or vulgar use : ABUSE, DEFILE, VULGARIZE
SACRED
3. holy or hallowed especially by association with the divine or consecrated : worthy of religious veneration
4. religious in nature, association, or use : not secular or profane
AD HOMINEM
1. directed at or appealing to one’s hearer’s or reader’s personal feelings or prejudices rather than his intellect and reason
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Kerissa said: You’ve used a paraphrase to support your point about what the Bible “intends.” Why?
First, the Message is a contemporary translation, not a paraphrase. Second, as I said in my previous post, I used it rather than others because I believed Peterson reflected the broader context of the word “undefiled” in his translation of Hebrews 13:4. The definition I cited in my post, which I won’t repeat here, is the primary entry from the New Testament Greek Lexicon. I stand by it.
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I think I’ve made my argument clearly enough in posts 11, 18, 26, 38, and 41 above. I’ll respond to a few random comments in your last post and then call it a wrap. I give the last word to you (unless, of course, you say something that requires another defense).
—I was not “insulted” by your post, or feel in any way “maligned.” It seemed clear to me that, regardless of your disclaimers, you were taking issue directly with things I had said in the immediately previous post. If I responded too vigorously, I apologize.
—Please do not take this personally, but your assertion that Christian teens and singles are sexually active because of what the church teaches about sex takes my rational breath away! You only confirm my earlier (too vigorous) statment. If any pastor anywhere is teaching that sex is “common, vulgar, and nothing really special” they are so buried in the backwoods as to have zero impact on culturally-influenced Christian teens. Teens in the church are sexually active because, 1) they consume countless hours of media that have deceived them with the message that sex is just a fun thing to do with no real consequences, and really is “nothing really special,” and 2) because the church has failed to more strongly and fervently present sex as a sacred act of God that should be highly honored and revered, as well as a source of great delight in marriage.
—While Joe Beam, and others like him, may have some good things to say about sex within marriage, it is my belief that he does “profane” and even “blaspheme” (see the M-W definition in post #38, 3rd paragraph) the value of sex in his presentation. You obviously do not agree. I’ll leave it at that.
—I never said or implied that “private matters should never be referenced with humor.” My point is that sex is a holy and sacred act, and that by trying to reflect the secular culture’s totally casual and “nothing really special” attitudes about sex, Christian culture can debase what God declares as holy. That can be done humorously or humorlessly, but if the end is to “profane” what God has declared holy, it is no joke.
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As my 18yo son, who knows that sex is sacred and worth waiting for, even though he struggles with his God-given hormones, says…”Peace, out.”
March 29, 2007 at 20:10
Christian M., you took personally comments referring to “someone,” “anyone,” and “others” that weren’t directed at YOU. You also misrepresented what I said, insulted my spirituality by telling this forum that you think I’m influenced by secular culture, and twisted my words to imply something I didn’t mean (that supposedly I claimed teens have sex because of what the church teaches about sex). These are false accusations, and I hope the moderator gives me the opportunity to express my belief that you have not treated my comments fairly. Although I may not change your opinions about anything, I would like to lovingly point out that you are incorrect about one thing: The Message is listed on its publisher’s website as a paraphrase. None of the mainstream translations support the point you were trying to make by quoting Hebrews 13:4.
For anyone who is interested in reading more about the original topic, there is a somewhat related thread on this site about Lauren Winner and her lecture series regarding sex in Christian marriage.
One thing we can take away from this dialogue is that it’s obvious there are some people who need and appreciate the kind of information Joe Beam provides in his seminars.
March 29, 2007 at 22:25
Clearly, MSNBC is only showing a few videos that can show examples of his speech/conference. Maybe if we had the complete video we may hold judgment. I always prefer to have the whole picture, so it can make perfect sense.
March 30, 2007 at 15:17
Kerrissa and Christian, let’s keep it friendly. You’ve both made some good points—if you want to debate it further, it might be best to take it to email. Thanks!
April 13, 2007 at 11:01
So many uptight typical responses here.
Where did he say sex is more important than Christ? He was just saying sex is GOOD in marriage, nothing more than that.
April 13, 2007 at 11:10
Keep it in mind all the posters here are sinners too and are going to hell without Jesus’s sacrifice. You are NOT hollier than anyone else.
There are many enjoyable things in this world God created, if enjoying “sex itself” is wrong you might as well walk to work, live outside of your house and eat ramen for every meal since obviously you are not supposed to have any “flesh gratification” right?
The true way of god gives people inner peace, not pointing fingers to each other.